Shoemoney, That Really Sucks

I see your point about showing both sides of the story and feel it shouldn't go unwarranted.

just one last question though - what is up with the huuuuge top banner.

Thank you, sir. For both the comment, and your visit.

As for the banner...

I'm an SEO. Not a designer. Actually, the last thing anyone would ever want me doing is designing their site. The blog (as little time as I get to dedicate to it) serves its purpose.

Believe it or not, there were once more than 300 posts on here. There was a very bad incident about 3 months ago, and I get to start over (note to everyone, backup is a word that should be on your mind constantly). It used to be a place I could refer potential clients to for information on subject matter. I'm working to get there again. Sigh...

Josh - I think that while, when pulled from context, Jeremy's statements sound a bit off, he's just an exaggerated writer sometimes. I honestly think that he's making a dig far more against the bottom-feeders of the SEO industry (of which, admittedly, there are more than a few) than against the industry as a whole. Now granted, it doesn't come off that way, and I think his 95% number is ridiculously high (and probably intended more as sensationalism than anything else), but that's his style. He likes to exaggerate and overstate and does so with everything from his musings on consumer products to how much he actually loves affiliate t-shirts (seriously, no one could love t-shirts that much) to his celebrity-dom (sure, he's a rock star in certain tech circles, but Hollywood isn't calling anytime soon). I personally take it with a grain of salt and laugh it off a bit.

The statement I think he made that's misleading is about hiring SEOs who know search engineers. I'd have to say that most of the best and brightest (I don't know, let's say... 95%) SEOs I've encountered don't know a single search engineer by name and don't need to! SE's are NOT based on the "do I know you and like you algorithm," they're based on the "I don't care if you're my best friend or an evil, ruthless madman, I'm ranking your content based on the factors." I wish he didn't propagate that piece of misinformation.

Wonderful Post ;) Atleast there's someone in SEO Industry who can speak against Boot Money..uh sorry Shoemoney ;) Cheers up

I am not sure what your complaining about.

I thought 95% was being quite generous. There are millions of people who class themselves as experts but are in reality just average.

When assessing how good they are you need to just the main keywords for their own website. Where for example are they placed on google.com for the phrase "seo expert".

People gain more respect by being truthful, shoemoney was right on the money which is perhaps why he is a NINJA.

Smells a bit like a Calacanis type link bait piece to me.

Cheap tart.

Hi Josh,
We hear this character-assassination all the time, directed at individuals in the SEO field, or the profession in general. It's obvious it's going to happen--how else can anyone else (who can't be bothered to take the years we spend learning our craft) beat what we do? They ignore the fact that, while we will accept responsibility for the results of our work, we won't make empty promises to a client. They ignore the fact that so many businesses have taken off with a little tweaking on our part. More than that, they ignore the fact that, in reality, people in the SEO field are a really nice bunch and easy to work with.

Ignore it and set about proving to the consumer that this attitude is wrong. :)

I'm sorry, but I agree.

I have had experience in this regard: I actually went out and contacted a bunch of SEO firms and even paid small amounts of money to a few as part of my research.

Most are simply useless. *You* may well be the exception, but Shoemoney is dead-on, or maybe even too low: it might be 99%.

I don't like to plug links in comments when I'm new to a site, but if you want to read what I did and what I found, just search Google for "Is there value in SEO Firms?". My post with that title should be the first result.

@Rand, Yeah I think you're right. Instead of feeding into his bait, I should probably do something constructive about it.

@Krunal - In reality, I'm probably the most docile of the SEO Speakers. It should be noted that I love and respect Shoe a great deal. He has a real knack for writing great headlines and churning visitors, clicks, and growth.

@Patricia - "More than that, they ignore the fact that, in reality, people in the SEO field are a really nice bunch and easy to work with."

I couldn't agree more. I truly feel blessed to be involved in such an industry.
RE: "Ignore it and set about proving to the consumer that this attitude is wrong. :)"

I thought about this last night, and I'm going to be trying something out. It's a 2 part campaign, one of which I'm not aware that anyone has ever done.

The SEO community needs to grow up and realize that we are totally responsible for the way the SEO industry is characterized.

If Shoe really feels the way he does, its not his fault. Its our fault for blowing 99% of our time whining and bitching about Google and baiting other bloggers in posts instead of speaking directly to potential clients, highlighting issues, and talking about workable solutions.

You can't find good information on most SEO blogs because most SEO bloggers don't even blog about SEO.

Let's take your blog. What have you blogged about in the last three months?

- TNX Paid review
- Shoemoney
- Link charity
- MSNBC
- Google doesn't celebrate your birthday
- Google is better than sex?

Two posts that potential clients may find value in:

http://www.seo-factor.com/7-considerations-for-social-media-marketing
http://www.seo-factor.com/buying-links-and-staying-safe

So are you helping or hurting the SEO industry by not blogging about stuff that potential clients will value?

Graywolf, who bashed Jason for claiming "SEO is bullshit" hardly ever talks about SEO on his blog.

So do we bitch about Shoemoney talking crap about our industry or do we take responsibility and admit we are part of the problem, realize this is an issue we can control, and do something about it?

Even in this post you did not even attempt to explain "what an SEO can do for you" - which makes your post a weak comeback, don't you think? If you're going to throw yourself into an argument, you gotta bring some ammo.

I know that as an SEO Shoe's comments are going to bother you - I'm an SEO, and they bother me. The problem: I've seen this so many times now I'm starting to think that while the 95% mark is high, it ain't that high. I've worked for a few "SEO" firms now, and at each one there was the same attitude: don't share "secrets" with the clients or they'll do it themselves or hire someone else for less money, don't ever tell a client they don't need the service, tend to only do work reactively (i.e. when the client complains they aren't ranking well), talk your way out of any accusation of failure (blame the economy, seasonality or some other outside factor), and overall, sell sell sell with no regard for whether the expectation for results is reasonable.

The bottom line here is that so many business owners involved in Internet Marketing have come to view SEO as a great source of residual income. Most clients, once they've signed a contract, will tend to "leave it alone" until they really get fed up with the lack of results, and I've seen many who don't pick up the phone to "check-in" for six months to a year. The result is that so many firms out there who are driven less to deliver quality service and results than to keep the money coming in are doing just fine while their clients are suffering.

It's ugly, but it's the truth from what I've seen. There are some great SEO's out there, don't get me wrong, but they are definitely in the minority. There are an awful lot of greedy people out there in many industries who are willing to take their clients for a ride to line their own pockets. It's as old as the hills.

Anthony, I'm really sorry that you've experienced such a poor service. I don't mean to sound crass, but where do you get this 99% number? How many SEOs are there? How many expert SEOs? How many shady ones? Throwing numbers like this, especially in our field, should be backed by some sort of documentation.

I applaud you in your rankings for that term. I would like to draw your attention to the allinanchor numbers though. And the total results. Though you are ranking, the competition isn't exactly there. (I don't know if you know what I'm talking about, if you don't please feel free to email me).

Also, without actually doing the research, there needs to be a question on how many people are looking for that term, is it successful for you, and are the visitors from that term converting to what you want? Those are the things that real SEOs look at. Congrats on ranking, but there's a lot more to it.

I looked at your post. And I really do understand where you're coming from. It is very unfortunate that you've gotten this kind of experience. But this is all the more reason you shouldn't put your nose up at SEOs. I certainly don't mean an offense, but you aren't educated in the area (at least as the post sounds) so it is even more important that you do a little more digging to make sure you aren't about to be ripped off.

To contradict myself on that point though, I'm not of the group that thinks a part of this is the business owner's fault. It is often said that any business should be made with research, and those that aren't deserve to be bitten. Though I understand and respect this stance, I don't agree. I am very blessed to be in this industry, and feel that it is part of our responsibility to educate those that aren't.

Seriously? The part that sucks most about your post is all the "we can get your rankings" harps. It's obvious that they are playing on the emotions of eager business owners. We all tout rankings as a part of the strategy, but it sucks that not one of them talked about keyword research, conversion, or visibility (not just through rankings).

I guess everybody is entitled on their opinion...just like both you and Shoemoney..both you guys make your opinions regarding your experiences, etc..so what's important is to always listen and respect to each others opinion...^^...Anyways it was a good read Josh..^^

@Halfdeck,

I agree...well...to a point. A lot of SEO blogs are meant for other SEO, be it for community, venting, or social reasons.

As for my blog, it's been here for about 2.5 years now. I don't know if you saw my comment a little earlier, but it was once filled to the brim with "beginner" information, often posted as I learned things myself. There was a mishap a few months ago, and I'm kinda screwed for the juicy posts (it really sucks because I used to rank for a lot of very basic terms that someone who just heard about SEO would search for; like "keyword SEO," and it would be a post about the keywords tag, it's deprecation, yet usefulness. There were a ton of them). I'm a bit busier now, and though I can still find a lot of those old posts, but I decided to take this as an opportunity to start fresh. I want to redo all those basic posts, but in a different way now.

Also, I'm in talks with a few organizations and SBA branches (are they called branches?) in this area. I hope to be able to get some basic information and "watch out" lists about SEO and Internet marketing into a packet of sorts to new business owners. It would be nice if I could leverage it as a means to get new clients as well, but I wouldn't be able to handle any more on my plate. I think maybe a reference of SEOs to reference when looking for services or something. I can always get clients with this idea later; but for now it would be nice to educate on a more massive level.

I don't talk about it on the blog much (mostly because I can't afford a lawyer of the caliber that would be required) but I worked for a company that ripped off new business owners to a very large extent. I've been looking for a way to passively combat the problem for a long time now.

So, that's what I'm doing. Your point is valid, but now I ask, what about you?

"Your point is valid, but now I ask, what about you?"

I don't pretend I'm any better than anyone else. We can all do more to put a better face on the SEO industry. One thing we can do is to occasionally write with ordinary webmasters in mind instead of aiming to gain backlinks/diggs/sphinns/stumbles with every post.

I don't think blaming Matt Cutts, Diggers, Jason, or Shoe for our bad rep is the answer. Shoe, for instance, is just articulating an idea that's already on alot of other people's minds. It's better for us to know that and address it than to not be aware that there's a problem.

The guy spammed technorati to get in the top 100 and then runs with it and comes off like an expert. Who seriously cares what shoemoney has to say about anything? You should almost expect there to be some sort of back end deal which he profits from when he writes about anything from his blog. This is nothing new; he admits it in the disclosure.

Shoe is nothing more than the National Enquirer of internet marketing blogs.

Who cares what Shoe has to say? A lot of people. Yeah he's in a different realm than myself, but a valid one nonetheless. I really can't comment on much of your statement because I simply don't give him or his site that much of my attention. I do know that he has found/created a market, has done a great job of monetizing it, and really does crank out some decent content.

@Halfdeck, I'm going to be bugging you about this in the future. Might be a while, but I'll be asking for your opinion on a few things. Thank you again for your thoughts.

"I applaud you in your rankings for that term. I would like to draw your attention to the allinanchor numbers though. And the total results. Though you are ranking, the competition isn't exactly there. (I don't know if you know what I'm talking about, if you don't please feel free to email me)."

:-)

I have no idea why you think anyone would be proud of ranking for a specific phrase that is the title of the post. As I explained at the time, I sent you that way because I don't like posting direct links at a site where I am unknown.

I "don't put my nose up". As my article said, some of the people were very nice, some actually had good suggestions - the "Adsense" type were actually the best.

But most of them were full of b.s. (as shown) and NONE of them paid any attention to what I told them - again as related there.

And they DID talk about keywords - keywords I already had top ranking for! Sheesh :-)

So, sure, there may be some of you worth talking to. My selection was random (and as I also said, a surprising number didn't even bother to answer my emails at all!) and it was 100% "bad" - that's why I think 95-99% is perhaps quite accurate.

I invite any "good" SEO here to read that post and contact me with their sales pitch - I bet in spite of the obvious advantage they'd have, some percentage will still turn out to be completely oblivious.

Anthony, of Unix, Linux, Mac OS X Help, Tutorials and support pages (you contribute to the comments, you get followed links. That's how things work around here) maybe I shouldn't have said "put your nose up." I think that's a snooty term, and I wanted to convey "shy away from." Admittedly, I had to solicit clients for a while when starting out. I wish I could find an email I would send, as I'm sure I wouldn't say those same things in an email today. It seems that the ones that reach out blindly, are the ones that are most likely to tarnish our name (not all mind you).

They may have discussed keywords, but keyword research is the part they seem to have left out (forgive me if I am reading something incorrectly). You see, not only should they have taken into account what you were saying, they should have noted your statements, confirmed them their selves, then explored other terms that you may not have thought about.

On a side note, if I am to take on a client with a brand new site, or even one where no research has been previously done, I don't take customer suggestions for the campaign. I make sure my client has an understanding about search terms in general, what we will be looking for, and not until I have numbers in hand will we move forward with specific terms. I was recently contacted by a company to handle a client that had purchased a "package" that allows them to provide the search terms, then I would be to rank for those terms. In the end, it could prove to be a great injustice to the client and the SEO.

As for "good" SEOs, I know I often get the attention of some bigger names, but I can not attest to how anyone else runs a business. I don't know that you will get any solicitations. As for myself, my freelance prices are obviously extremely low. I handle very small businesses, almost exclusively, and rarely get into blogs themselves.

"you contribute to the comments, you get followed links. That's how things work around here"

OK. I just don't like to jump in with a link when I'm new. Maybe I'm too polite..

not only should they have taken into account what you were saying, they should have noted your statements, confirmed them their selves, then explored other terms that you may not have thought about.

Yes - they should have. But they did not.

if I am to take on a client with a brand new site, or even one where no research has been previously done, I don't take customer suggestions for the campaign

Well, I can understand that to some degree, but for example, my business is "Unix and Linux support". Obviously you'd take my "suggestion" that those would be the terms I'd want to emphasize :-)

I handle very small businesses, almost exclusively, and rarely get into blogs themselves.

If you can tell me where my blog ends and my business starts or vice versa, I've got a Kewpie doll for you..

Anyway: I'm sure there ARE good SEO firms. I'm sure there are good Web design firms also (something I'm much more in need of than SEO at the moment). But because anyone can advertise such services, I think the chances of stumbling upon the good ones in a web search are vanishingly low.

I certainly don't mean an offense, but you aren't educated in the area

I won't argue that with you too much, because it certainly isn't my field.

However, I have educated myself as far as I'm able and have certainly nailed PART of SEO: the terms I'm interested in are "Unix Consultant(s)" "Linux Consultant(s)" "Kerio Mailserver " (or "Kerio Mail Server") and "Fortinet Firewall". I can't do to much better in search than I've done for those (yet I guarantee that some of your brethren would tell me they could "improve" that!).

I know I need help on the design side and on the conversion side, and am investigating those areas - but again, it's very hard to separate the jackasses from those who might really be helpful. I don't have money to waste, and I'm leery.. very leery.

And there's another thing: where does SEO leave off and Conversion begin? Where does Design overlap Conversion? Really, from my point of view it's all one thing and separating it reminds me of the blind men and the elephant.

Sure, hit me up anytime.

Anthony, I keep re-reading our comments back and forth, and I'm pretty sure we are in agreement on pretty much everything, but I may not be conveying it correctly.

As for "And there's another thing: where does SEO leave off and Conversion begin? Where does Design overlap Conversion? Really, from my point of view it's all one thing and separating it reminds me of the blind men and the elephant."

They don't separate. Ever...mostly ever. Well...bleh. This is where it gets tricky. you have one corner with crap SEOs touting the magic bullet, the other corner who says design and usability is of the most importance, another for conversions, another for...you get the idea. SEO is a piece.

I don't know if you regular Sphinn or not, but he is hammering the fact that we as SEOs need to educate that SEO is a piece, not the whole pie. So a big part of the whole misunderstanding is the fact that while I'm over here bitching, I should be writing posts that will highlight what SEO is, how it may help, what it is we do, where our respective jobs end, and how they all come together.

In "taking suggestions" that was a mis type on my part. Of course I would take suggestions. I wouldn't take a hard list.

And for the Kewpie doll. I had to look that up. What the hell is that thing? It's ugly.

A Kewpie doll s something they'd give away at fairs if you knocked down the milk bottles or shot the ducks or got the ring on the bottle..

Yes, SEO is part.. but I think I need integration: I need SEO, graphic design, mechanic design, copywriting (not for my posts but for my business pages), all of that.. I think the whole thing has to work together, that design has to be vetted by SEO and vices versa and all around the circle.. or at least that would be ideal.

Personally, I think you are a spammer, after all only a spammer would do what you did recently.

If not a spammer, then your ethics leave a lot to be desired, people who take only, and never give are not liked long term.